Jonathan Drake

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Posts by Jonathan Drake

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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Poor literacy levels in the Muslim World doesn't change this. They're taught various interpretations from the local imams. 
  

  This is precisely my point, they aren't reading it for themselves. So the blame would not rest with the Quran, but how the imams are teaching; because the people can't even read it! Lol

  this does not undo the fact that the Quran should still be modernized of course, but it does show the real issue is how it's being interpreted, and how it's being taught, not what it says necessarily- because they can't even read it. 
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Viv said:

  Thanks for that quote. It clearly shows that I never said abortion was deplorable. On a side note, the above chart is making a lot of sense.

  Viv said:

  I've no need to explain something I never said.

  The thing being interpreted clearly commands rape, murder, slavery, abortion, genocide, theft and murder. It is a deplorable thing. There is no moral defense for this.

  Please... PLEASE ANYONE ELSE MAKE SENSE OF THIS TO ME
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Drake - I don't think cofty had only ISIS in mind, rather, I'm pretty sure he meant most of the Muslim world. This includes KSA, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, northern Nigeria, Somalia ... 
  

  Oh you know what I think you're right. 

  so I'll say this, as I've said before, defending islam isn't really my goal. However... Cofty and others have said most Muslims haven't even read the Quran, and this is true, so again, how can the Quran be blamed...?

  • Under the Ottoman empire, worldwide Muslim literacy rates were only 2 to 3% in the early nineteenth century.

  • 6 out of 10 Muslims worldwide still cannot read (as opposed to only 2 out of 10 people in "Christendom") 

  • Nearly 1 in 3 people in the Arab world are illiterate, including nearly half of all women.

  Taken from:

  http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics

  Now, on this page you see all the terrible things happening in the Muslim world. I say again, my interest was never in defending islam. I would draw everyone's attention to the fact that 60% of all Islam CANNOT READ. Hence they have never read the Quran. So how are we blaming the Quran, when it's not even possibly at fault? 
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  The thing being interpreted clearly commands rape, murder, slavery, abortion... There is no moral defense for this.
  

  Again, your sayin it clearly means something when hundreds of millions disagree. What is clear to you is crazy to others. 

  Also, you believe abortion is deplorable amd immoral? Explanation of this possible?
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Pretending the repeatedly plain language...
  

  Plain to YOU. YOU are interpreting what you read, and now your calling that interpretation, "plain" and saying any who dont agree with you are dishonest....

  
  

  Id really love for someone else to respond to you, I'm surely not the only one noticing your nonsense. 
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  It is in those lands that we find the greatest amount of violence, intolerance, misogyny and oppression. Why?
  

  this is just not the case. There are at most only 50,000 members of ISIS. 

  in America alone:

  There were an estimated 1,163,146 violent crimes reported to law enforcement last year

  http://www.crimeinamerica.net/crime-rates-united-states/
  
  

  Just because there is a high concentration of these crimes in ISIS, does not mean they outnumber the rest of the world in such crimes. 

  
  
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  But surely the Quran shares a little of the blame? I mean, if the Quran said: 'be peaceful, love your enemies and killing is wrong' then the Muslim extremists would be very, very peaceful.
  

  Yes, it needs to be modernize and clarified so that the real meaning is clear. I agree with this, part of the problem is lack of the perspective tha would provide the right understsnding.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  their interpretation of the Quran
  

  
  

  So the issue is NOT the book, but how they are interpreting it. This is precisely my point. Lay the blame on the ones interpreting it this way, not the thing being interpreted.
• 
  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

  1. 
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  Jonathan Drake

  @viv

  Comparing something open to interpretation and unprovable to math, which is a closed fact that is not open to interpretation, is a logical fallacy. 

  Pretending the repeatedly plain language and multitudes of commands to kill and rape aren't reality is dishonest.

  You're seriously being a huge hypocrite here. Just a few pages back you were harping on me for supposedly telling people why they think and feel things, and saying only I have the proper understanding of what the books are saying, even though I never said that... 

  But here you are ACTUALLY saying what you accused me of, and saying all who disagree with you are dishonest! Lol wonderful. I feel like maybe you're entire account on this forum exists for satire, that would make sense. I can never tell satire from seriousness.
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  303

  The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

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  Jonathan Drake

  Hundreds of millions people claiming 2+2=5 doesn't make it true. 
  

  Comparing something open to interpretation and unprovable to math, which is a closed fact that is not open to interpretation And is provable, is a logical fallacy. 

  There is never a scenario where any circumstance of context will change what two numbers add up to, however if Muhammed was referring to a specific event when speaking this does change a verses meaning entirely. There is just no comparison existing in what you are saying here.

  and I won't even pay the rest of your post the courtesy of being read if we are resorting to such faulty reasonings.